After reading the posts by "just wondering", I am just wondering, why "just wondering feels the need to reply with such a tone of smug condecention. I trained at one of the best schools with a group of fantastic teachers. I have been teaching for 9 years and own my own studio. Over that time I have continued my education with workshops and training seminars, again taught by wonderful teachers, MAry Bowen, Kathy Grant, Cara Reeser, Amy Alpers, Eric Franklin, Michael Miller to name a few, and never were any of those teachers, anything by compationate and enlightening in a way that was not about them or proving what they know, it was to encourage us to explor and learn and grow as teachers. If I were a new student to Pilates and had the misfortune to have just wondering as my instructor, I would probably never go back. There is a difference between teaching and showing off and I don't think Just wondering knows the difference.

LA,

I acknowledge that my responses could be interpreted in that light, but I have to say that it was not my intention to sound condescending or demonstrative. I have a deep passion for what I do and I hold myself to a high standard for the purpose of integrity in my work and safety for my clients. Sometimes my passion can come forth in cyberspace as it has here... my apologies.

I do want to clarify though that I did not provide my responses as an "educator", but merely as personal opinion, insight, observation based on my education thus far and clinical experience.

I value compassion and support in both the learning processes and the professional setting alike. I've never been seen to be anything but by my clients. What I have taken issue with in some of the posts here is the notion that Pilates instructors/Pilates trainings properly educate and equip teachers to manage and 'treat' clients' conditions.

Understanding spinal stenosis, scoliosis, disc bulges/herniations, hip/pelvic problems, knee problems, etc requires a sound and thorough education in anatomy and physiology alike. There is no Pilates teacher training that I've come across (including the big names) that offers an in-depth A&P education that would allow teachers to work in a safe manner with these issues.

There is a 600 hour program in my area that is quite reputable and affiliated with one of those 'big names', ...yet only 150 of those hours consists of 'lab and classroom' study/instruction. The remainder 450 hours are spent teaching (apprentice hours). And of the 150, only about 30 hours are spent on basic anatomy... and it just isn't realistic to gain a thorough working understanding of the whole system functionality with such a basic introduction.

I think it's a great start, and we all start there.. including myself. But I wouldn't suggest to the public that I can help them with this problem or the next without a significant amount of further education.

So what gets me kind of wound up LA is the fact that there are so many Pilates teachers blatantly advertising and suggesting to the public that they can help people with these problems, and they have little or no understanding of how pilates exercises may potentially effect them.

Then these people end up letting the problem go until it progresses in severity and really starts speaking to them in the form of pain or limitation... at which point they'll finally go to see someone who is properly trained to do so. Because the bottom line is that we really don't know the effect that pilates is really having on these problems, for better or worse, ...all we know is that movement/exercise makes them feel better. But are we just masking the problem with rigidity/over-stability and the inevitable circulatory effect that any form of exercise has on the tissues of the body.

It especially concerns me because some of the foundational ideology driving pilates contradicts the latest evidence and approaches to 'core' stability, pelvic and spinal stability and function as studied and utilized by the top clinicians in the world. These are PhDs, MDs & PTs who have done, and are still doing extensive research and development to support what they are finding.

At the end of the day, I think exercise is great.. especially for such a sedentary culture as ours. But proposing models of 'core stability' without any evidence to support it is irresponsible and detrimental. I don't personally understand why the greater pilates community isn't willing to take a harder, more critical look at what Joseph was doing. It wouldn't be an insult to the profession/method, but rather part of its healthy evolution based on greater understanding. This process seems absolutely necessary for the positive and effective growth of any discipline. It seems foolish to me to think Joseph Pilates had it all figured out and there was nothing left to do with his original ideas. Sometimes we might find that previous beliefs simply aren't accurate, and we have to have humility to accept and learn from it to move forward.

I question everything that comes my way so that I can understand it to the best of my ability and grow from the experience. ...Knowing full well that very little is truth in the realm we work in... We're all doing our best to create working models of understanding and can/should expect those models to change over time.

LA, I'm not here to "show off"... nor to "educate" anyone. I'm just expressing my opinion on topics that create concern about how pilates is used and where it's going. I would hope that if a prospective pilates student came across some of these discussions and varied views that it would provoke some further thought before diving in head first to the pilates world and blindly accepting ideology that has little evidence to support its claims.

I'm not anti-pilates, just anti-ignorance. Information can only help us make wiser decisions.... and provide our clients with a more successful and safer experience.

I hope you can see my point, whether we agree or not. Compassion is important, but not at the expense of content. We should not be excused for reasons of compassion alone. Since we work with people's bodies and being, and ultimately their overall health, we have a deeper obligation to fulfill.

Kindly

Just Wondering

I agree with you JustWondering. I am a Pilates teacher; I am not a physical therapist. I know how to teach the exercise system known as the Pilates Method. I have learned how to make modifications to the exercises for people but I do not and never would tell people that I can help them with their problems, as you talk about:

"So what gets me kind of wound up LA is the fact that there are so many Pilates teachers blatantly advertising and suggesting to the public that they can help people with these problems"

In my training (classical, authentic, or whatever you want to call it), we were specifically taught not to tell clients that we can help them with their problems.

When I first started on my Pilates journey, I went to one of those kinds of Pilates teachers who told me she could "fix" my problem. I came out of her place feeling worse.

I think we Pilates teachers must remember that no matter how good we are, most of us are not trained in a medical model. We are exercise teachers, I think -- nothing more, nothing less. And that, in my opinion, is a pretty good thing to be. Because despite some of the research you describe, I find that Pilates does benefit most people I know who practice it.

I am a longtime pilates teacher committed to enhanced communication and dialogue within our community and beyond. I'd like to write more, but first:

JW, if I can call you that :-)...in your post you write:

"I value compassion and support in both the learning processes and the professional setting alike. I've never been seen to be anything but **** by my clients."

There seems to be a word missing..."appropriate", perhaps? Could you please fill in the blank?

I'd also like to hear form LA about what you have studied recently to support your clients. I read your post under the Fitness vs. Bodywork post (btw, thanks to Alycea) and want to say Kudos to you!

And finally, dropshot, has the problem you mentioned resolved, if so--how, and are you able to perform pilates-in full "classical" form as you view it?

These clarifications will help me to understand more of where you're coming from...then I would like to send a response.

I am proud to be part of a community that demonstrates such depth of passion and want to applaud everyone for speaking their mind.
Thanks for the discussion!!

Thank you for your response and I absolutely agree with you! I have been teaching Pilates for only 9 years but have been in the fitness industry for 28, My background includes a Ms in exercise science and kinesology and I always took issue with the ceritfication programs for personal trainers that could be obtained after one weekend of training. In fact I was asked to participate as a trainer for a "National Training Organization and turned them down because I could not endorse their program.

Thank you just wondering for your reply. I absoutely agree with everything you wrote.
I have been teaching Pilates for only 9 years, but was in the fitness industry for 28. My background includes an Ms in exercise science and kinesology.
As Pilates has become more popular what we are seeing is a dumbing down of the method and is analogous to what has been a bane of the fitness industry for years,certification organizations who are making money by giving their stamp of approval to unqualified trainers.

Dear just wondering,thank you for you insightful reply and I could not agree with you more on everything!
I have only been teaching pilates for 9 years but was in the fitness industry for 28 years.
My background includes a Ms in exercise science and kinesology and I had many issues over the years with the certification of personal trainers after a one weekend workshop. I see that as pilates becomes more and more popular the same thing is taking palce, certification organizations that are making money by giving their stamp of approval to unqualified trainers.
I have the benefit of an extensive education and a physical therapist and chiroppracter who work with me, but many pilates instructors do not and are not equipped to deal with clients who have been told that pilates will cure a bad back or shoulder or hip and they are dangerous to their client and to the Pilates community at large.
I also take issue with many of the certification organizations that are offering modular training that presents a very myopic view of the Method , rather than the holestic way it was intended. Unfortunately many of the "good schools" have been marketing to the fitness industry and are offering "weekend workshop training to fitness instructors on the chair or reformer, but alas it's all about the money.
We do need to take a look at pilates and to challange and question things that we now understand through the technology that was not available in Joe's day, or even 30 years ago for that matter.
I appologize to you as it happens and we are really on the same page.

woops!

sorry about he many posts, I don't know how that happened I feel strongly about my reply, but not that much

Hey LA,
I guess we were writing at the same time this am!
So, did you see my post above?
I'm interested in what you have been excited about recently in your studies...

I have the benefit of working with a wondeful chiropractor and physical therapist who share my studio space. I learn new and exciting things every day. The PT wsa a dancer and is also pilates trained, she has been working in NYC with Marka Molnar on myofacial release,specifically on the psoas. We have been getting great results on releasing the pelvis from the rib cage through this technique. But I want to stress that I do not do the MYR myself, the PT does that, I use the equipment with specific exercises that were developed by Ms Molnar.
I also work on a gyrotonic expansion machine in my studio and have been working with a certified instructor on it. I just love it.It has done wonders for my thoracic extension where I am challanged due to tight pecs from years in the fitness industry pumping iron. It really frees movement in multiple planes and the swimmey bouancy is wonderful change from the ridgidity that can develop from the linear movements in pilates.

There is nothing wrong in saying that you can "fix' something if you have been successful in fixing it. I work extensively with scoliosis, stenosis, knock knees, bowed legs and a variety of shoulder and knee problems and I have been succesful in "fixing" or dramatically improving the problem. That is why people come to me.

If you have not been able to consistently thin someones thighs, eliminated back pain or improve someone's posture then you can not hide behind the commercial marketing claims that Pilates is known for.
If you are choosing to make claims, then you need to back up your statements with documentation. Make sure you start with a baseline, set a goal and track progress. I have a client with MS that gets periodic strength tests to support my work with her. I have x-rays, bone scan reports and before and after photos for my clients with scoliosis, back issues, osteoporosis and leg alignment issues.

I think the problem with the training programs is that they stayed one dimensional. Their techniques never developed and instead they kept adding more props. A one hour mat class with a magic circle is ridiculous considering what I use the magic circle for.

LA stop worrying what other teachers think. You can make any claim you want to as long as you can back it up. If you can't then find a teacher that can help you.

A doctor gave me the best advice. "Doctors are so quick to criticize others because they didn't think of it first' Pilates teachers are the same way.

Note: I am not a doctor, nor do I claim to be.

LA:
To post as a professional, no matter the content, spell check goes a long way.

CS

Stacey, firstly I do not worry about what other teachers think of me per se, however I do want to be respected by my peers as I trust we all do. I do not make any claim I cannot back up with education and knowledge that comes from experience.I have wonderful teachers who I admire and learn from and I try to pass that along to my client and "do no harm"
and finally CS, while I appreciate your input, there is really no reason to be mean and snarky. Since my clients are not expecting me to spell the exercises to them I guess I can rest assured that I will prevail in this business.

"And finally, dropshot, has the problem you mentioned resolved, if so--how, and are you able to perform pilates-in full "classical" form as you view it?"

Yes the problem has resolved, thank you. That was years ago. How? I attribute the healing to regular Pilates practice. And yes, I'm able to perform Pilates in classical form. (I'm not saying it's always pretty or perfect, but I do it!)

When new clients come to my studio and say "I have this" or "I have that" and "I heard Pilates can help," I say: "Perhaps. Many people tell me that it does help them but I cannot promise you that. You'll have to see for yourself." I would not tell them, "This'll fix your scoliosis or your bow legs or your stenosis or your shoulder or your neck." While I do believe that Pilates is extraordinary and most of the time I do see dramatic improvements when people regularly practice it, it is not a miracle cure.

And reading about a condition on the internet or taking a weekend workshop about it is not the same as really studying it (apprenticeship, etc.). Look, I would not take Pilates lessons from a yoga teacher who read about it on the internet or attended a weekend workshop about it. Likewise, I would not take yoga from a Pilates teacher.

Stacey,

Wow... !? You mentioned the following...

"I work extensively with scoliosis, stenosis, knock knees, bowed legs and a variety of shoulder and knee problems and I have been succesful in "fixing" or dramatically improving the problem."

Genu valgus or vagus patterns sure, but stenosis and scoliosis???? How do you "fix" a stenosis without surgery? As it's caused by bony overgrowth (osteophytes and such) I don't see how one could "fix" that with pilates or any non-surgical approach.

And if you're "fixing" scoliosis then kudos to you, really. Scoliosis is of particular interest to me in my manual practice and it's no easy beast to tame, so-to-speak. I have a very hard time believing that pilates is going to achieve such claims on any sort of regular, consistent basis, if at all beyond strengthening and support. And that's what needs to happen before we make claims that we can "fix" things. That's great if you can help one person with their scoliosis become more comfortable and such, but others to follow will expect you to do the same for them when you make claims like that.... And that's false hope toward people who are often desperately seeking solutions to those types of problems.

Nothing personal, but the notion of "fixing" the human body is so incredibly arrogant to start... Maybe there's some other terminology to describe the benefits and effects derived.

One last thought on this fixing business... Do you have before and after standing x-rays of the individuals you helped with scoliosis?

Ahhh, 'Helped' might be a more conducive term to describe what we can do for people.... But I'm open to suggestions - :)

JW

I'll second that, JW...
check out my post above and see if I got the word right...?
onebody

Didn't you know, JW, that Joe died and made Dreisbach
"Pilates God?" She can probably smack 'em with the butt of her hand and say, "Be HEALED and articulate that spine!"

onebody,

"I value compassion and support in both the learning processes and the professional setting alike. I've never been seen to be anything but **** by my clients."

"Appropriate" would work just as well, yet "compassionate and supportive" were the words I was eluding to... But I'm sure that others might have some creative suggestions they might prefer to use.... .

Thanks for the dialogue thus far. This was more along the lines of what I was hoping for. Whether or not we all agree on everything.

p.s.- I enjoyed your post on the 'other' topic. ...And yes, JW is fine by me.

JW

rebelred,

No, I didn't hear that. But then again how could I, ...I haven't been accepted into the circle of Gods just yet to know what goes on in their mighty presence. They're having some issues with my insubordination.

JW

All in good fun... I could use a laugh at this point to be honest.

Thanks for the clarifications, LA and dropsot, and thanks, JW, I get it (and thanks for enjoying my other post!). Well, the gang’s all here I see. Rebelred…lol…ahhh…side stitch—love the comic relief, and Staaceeya, something told me you’d chime in. I’ve read these posts for months now and have enjoyed them.

I did ask for the clarifications, because I really believe that there is a way to communicate and get on the same page…but I won’t waste time preaching to the choir...LA and JW worked it out beautifully and I just want to say thanks. I appreciate the process that these posts demonstrate and hope that many read them. We may all choose to work differently, but I believe we have the same intention.

You, too, Stacey (SD)--I really believe that. I don’t mean to laugh at your expense, but something tells me you can take it. Everyone’s voice is necessary. The others perhaps know that there’s nothing like anonymity to allow true personalities to come through. You are really quite brave—let’s all give her that.

But here’s what I’d like to offer: you might not want to cut the communication before you start. Being so firm in one particular opinion tends to lead others to believe that you have it all figured out, so why do you need their input? Maybe you don’t want it. Maybe you have good reason to focus so deeply on your path and not let in scrutiny at this point. I can understand that, but I have to say that I have never really operated that way. I would be nowhere without feedback from trusted colleagues and I don’t know anyone who has “figured out” what they have without standing on the shoulders of giants, if you get my drift. Where is your gratitude? Can you give credit where due?

On another note: I find that asking questions to find out where someone is coming from cuts out a lot of the off-subject rambling that comes from assuming you know already. For example, I had a hunch LA would give such a comeback. It’s fun to find out my instincts are in good operating order!

To me, frustration can be a mask for an underlying passion. I’ve been there. I have the good fortune to know wise individuals who know how to listen and it is amazing how effortlessly you can let go of fear when you feel heard. Using words like “ridiculous” may just be your way of discerning what you do…that’s good when you’re looking in the mirror in your bathroom, but to make it public…? Might there be another way you could have said that to obtain a different response. Again, you might not be open to that and that’s fine. But, if you are, I’ll offer here again, that an apology goes a long way (right, LA, JW?).

Lastly, consider this: (now don’t bother to get out the violins)…but I have been in this biz nearly three decades. I would have quit a long time ago if not for patience—it’s key. Faith is also key. Don’t we teach that every day? Patterns take a while to develop…each person’s unwinding is different. But we do unwind (right dropshot?). SD, do you really think you have all the answers for every person?

Is it comforting for you to know that you are not the only one who might have the same ideas? Or does it make you feel like you will lose your one-up? I think in every profession you have those who don’t know what they don’t know yet enough to humble themselves so that they may enter into communication with others that they believe are their competitors. How important is competition to you? It’s so not where I’m coming from. Thank GOODNESS for the trademark cancellation. We are wide open.

There’s a lot more I could say about the technical content of everyone’s posts…but again, I think you got the content covered. I have decided to only give comments about communication under the name “onebody.”

Thanks for the post, LA and thanks to all for reading. JW, stay your sweet, insubordinate self. Gosh, I feel like tiptoe-ing through the tulips (are any of you old enough to know what I mean?)
Now let’s all put on our ruby slippers, click our heels 3 times and repeat, “There’s no place like Joe’s, There’s no place like Joe’s…”
Goodnight.

Hey Onebody I am really lame on the computer so sorry for typo's and spelling but I want to thank you for that great post!
It's been my experience that those individuals who are the most secure with themselves, recognize that they don't know it all and probably never will. At 61 years old (looks 41 ha ha) I am still a work in progress, and happy to continue as a perpetual student of Pilates (and life in general) to evolve and grow and learn new stuff. After a 28 year career in Fitness, I started my Pilates training when I was 50, and it's been a life changing experience.
I think that I would love to meet and work you and with JW, and dropshot and Stacy, it's great to have input that gives a new perspective to our view, after all it's how we "see" our clients that helps us help them.

Hey LA,
So then you would remember Tiny Tim, huh???
No worries on the typos.
Our profession is so rich…so much to explore…still in its infancy with so much to be defined.
Yeah, and you know the thing that also helps in becoming secure in oneself is validation.
Frankly, SD’s comments on this site lead me to think that “cooperation” or “co-operation” is not a very important word in her vocabulary. It is in mine. I’d be happy to speak with her if she approached me in a humble, open manner…otherwise…making her acquaintance would be too exhausting for me at this point.
I do hope we can all meet one day—happy we have these posts for now. I find posting to be quick and easy, and I find that the ability to voice a concern and receiving feedback gives me a hefty amount of satisfaction for the effort output. Thanks!

So, just to clarify: Stacey Dreisbach, dear, I’m sure your work is quite valuable to many, just not for me—at this point—given that my priority is healthy communication. I value this important aspect of the human experience.
And SD, after sleeping on it…may I say, in the most kind way possible, that you probably want to be aware that no matter what your past (I took a few moments to read your blog) you most likely do not hold the monopoly on “survivor” stories. Maybe you could begin to recognize that your words can be abrasive…although your intent is perhaps to be helpful…? In any event, it is evident that you are very driven and, in the spirit of community, I will look forward to your book.

Stacey,

I'm sincerely interested in a response to my question about scoliosis and such.

You mentioned the following in your post;
"If you are choosing to make claims, then you need to back up your statements with documentation."

Still wondering...

Well Stacey, after reading your blog and website, I am impressed but wondering how you accumulated so much knowledge and wisdom in such a short time. It seems to me that most people spend a life time trying to achieve the expertise and understanding of human movement potential that you have attained in what....a megar 10 years.
Gosh, even Irene Dowd who has been studing since 1964 and is one of the most respected movement educators in this field, still has enough humility to acknowledge that she doesn't know it all.
I may be wrong but I actually think that we attended the same training program, I remember a woman named Stacey from Bethlehem PA who was writing a book about Joseph Pilates. Might be a coincidence though, this woman was very eager to learn and share informaion but did not come off like she was the Einstein of Pilates and the rest of us were Beavis and/or Butthead

Dear justwondering,
I searched the site for “model” and came up with the following:

In your March 8th post to the Core Stability article you wrote:
“Where's the mention of the important psoas in this "core" model…”

and in your October 1st post under lighten-up you wrote:
“I question everything that comes my way so that I can understand it to the best of my ability and grow from the experience. ...Knowing full well that very little is truth in the realm we work in... We're all doing our best to create working models of understanding and can/should expect those models to change over time.”

With the help of committed colleagues, I have researched/developed/written a broad-based pedagogical model for movement and embodiment practices. I have been consulting with a phenomenologist for years and launched a school around it in 2001. I have documented the evolution (about 15 evolutions so far) of the model as I’ve gone along—so I like what you wrote and thought it might interest you. I’m always looking for bodyworkers who are interested in a conversation about it to further develop that aspect of the model.

Interested? If so, please email me @ info@aim-academy.org.

Best Wishes,
Carole Amend